The training is not so much a full fledged class as an orientation with hands-on exercises. My recollection is it’s 30-45 minutes, not heavy duty. I’ll get an outline from Dana who teaches the sessions and share what I learn.
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Having taken Travis’s orientation class, I think such training is a good idea before handing someone the tool.
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Certification “training” needs to be tool-specific, more or less as appropriate, IMO.
My bias for these premium tools is 1) there should be minimum appropriate certification and 2) cost should be free to original funders and diminimous for other members, just enough of a charge to ensure students show up. Again, this training is for safety, proper tool use and good tool maintenance. Again, this is just my opinion.
This basic certification training would give them Openpath rights to check out the tool.
From this starting point, the tools can advance real skill-building training. The Domino will be amazing for cabinet making. The Shaper Origin will unbelievable for fancy joinery. Once we get a critical mass of users we can start exploring these kinds of exciting options.
An alternate path to tool certification could be completing one of the skill-building classes.
Thanks for these comments as they’re helping us to flesh out important details!
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There are a number of good suggestions here. Video classes before the class, then review and hands on demo for a class, even if the class is short. I fully agree with access control on the specialized tools. The fact that people are messing with the IVAC system and the table saw fence, with results showing that they have no idea how to adjust them makes it clear that access needs to be restricted to trained users. There is no exclusivity period for investors, but the investor group does need time to learn the tool and develop procedures before offering training and access to the rest of ASMBLY members. The question of a 30 minute class vs 1 hour class, required videos, etc., can be determined during the post-acquisition review phase, on a tool by tool basis.
As discussed, storage is the current limitation. My thought is to build cabinets, similar to the ones in the bathrooms. 8 feet tall. Doors added as necessary, sized to application. Those could be built a module at a time, say 2 feet wide. Shelves, rails and doors can be added later, sized to the new tool. More tools? New module. Stack them side by side.
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Another thing to note wrt budget. Storage closets have a cost, particularly the digital locks. Something to include in the planning.
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It seems there is consensus to get a Domino 700. I too would use it, and would be happy to work with those interested.
My understanding is that there would be an initial buy-in by interested members who would put up the money as a tax deductible donation. The money, if I understand correctly, would have to cover not just the cost of the DF 700, but also any accessories, and also a proportion of the cost of the locker and the internet enabled locks.
Some preliminary online research suggests that the DF700 is on backorder till at least Feb or March 2022.
Here is a breakdown of possible costs: If anyone has experience with the domino, please weigh in if there is something else that is essential, or if some of the listed accessories costed out are unnecessary.
The basic kit costs around $1500.
- (1) Domino Cutter (12mm)
- (1) Support Bracket
- (1) Wrench
- (1) Trim Stop
- (1) Cross Stop
- (1) Plug it Cord
- (1) T-Loc Systainer 5
The RTS 500 adapter is an additional $69
Additional cutters/bits are ~$70
There would need to be a vacuum extractor attached. However the Festool vacuum is around $400. Presumable we could use existing shop vacuum extractors.
I’m not sure what amount would be needed to contribute to the locker and locks. $200
So a ball park figure to get this would be about
Not sure what the contribution to the locker $200
So preliminary estimate may be in range of $2000 needed.
We would need at least 10 people willing to contribute $200.
1: Question to those with experience and knowledge: is this analysis accurate and complete? If not, what is missing?
2: Question to members: is there interest enough to move ahead?
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From what I can tell, Rockler has them available currently. We’d need to make sure we have enough people, so that the initial money isn’t sitting in limbo until enough decide they want it. I think right now we have ~7 people, so that would mean $285 each, unless someone paid extra (at $2000 total price).
We’d need to figure out what the contribution to the cabinet/locker should be – I believe that is one thing on the docket for the work day December 4th, so perhaps we could wait till materials get purchased for that and then add the proportion we’d use? (i.e. 1/2 the price if there’s 2 cabinets, 1/4 if there’s 4, etc).
We also need to decide how many cutter bits to buy. There exists for the 700: 8mm, 10mm, 12mm, and 14mm. Then again for the 500: 4mm, 5mm, 6mm, 8mm, 10mm. I assume we wouldn’t need 8mm and 10mm in both sizes, but that still leaves 6 additional sizes available at a price of $70 each, so an extra $420 + $70 adapter = $490 if we would like to provide them all. So that brings the price to $2100 even before locker materials are included.
How long do they last? Need to make the decision if these will be like drill bits where they are BYOB (bring your own bits), or like saw blades, where the shop provides when they are getting dull or broken.
If we wanted to buy the kit of dominos + all cutters instead of just the cutters , it is $345 for the DF500 sizes, and $315 for the 12 and 14mm DF 700 sizes ( and $350 for 8 and 10mm DF700 sizes). This seems like a bad option really, but would give us a bunch of dominos to try and a few extra systainers. I’ll go ahead and nix this idea here and now lol.
@TravisGood In your experience, are all sizes used/needed, or are there a few we should definitely purchase and the rest can be bought by users or purchased at a later date?
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The board will work with Charlie on a cabinet plan in the next couple weeks – we’re debating between a minimal cabinet build to support a handful of access-controlled tools, and a larger build that includes lockers that members can rent.
tl;dr on the debate is that the OpenPath controller is a single purchase that supports up to 16 lockers, so it’d be nice if we could leverage that expenditure to enable a revenue stream instead of just eating it as a cost. Decision ultimately rests I think on how many people we have interested in helping build cabinetry.
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Does anyone on this thread have a specific need for the 700 over the 500? @wdnatx has used both, and says:
The 700 is a beast, and a heavy beast at that. I used a friend’s 700 for a few projects before deciding to get the 500 for myself. I’ve used the 500 on ~8-10 different projects, some small joinery, some larger outdoor projects. FWIW, I’ve never encountered a project where the 500 wasn’t enough and only the 700 would do. I’m sure examples exist, but my guess is that for 90% of Asmbly’s use cases, the 500 would suffice.
There’s certainly an accessibility argument to be made in favor of the option that’s physically easier for members to use.
@TravisGood you have experience with both - what are your thoughts?
Highland Woodworking has a detailed comparison, which they summarize:
We believe that for the majority of shops, the Festool Domino DF 500 provides the best value due to its lower cost and robust capabilities. It can handle a wide range of projects from the very small boxes to household furniture: tables, chairs, chests, etc. If you typically deal in materials around 3/4 of inch from sheet goods to 4/4 and even 8/4 - the DF 500 is going to meet your needs.
The XL DF 700 meets a need in shops that handle large-scale furniture like conferences tables or applications where strength is critical (like chairs). Using large, deep floating tenons to join slabs of wood and other thick materials gives confidence that the project will be robust and last for years.
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Personally, my needs will be met with the 500. I see the benefit of opting for the biggest, most capable machine, but I also see the downside. Accessibility for a huge joiner will be lower, and it’ll surely be a little more difficult to use than the 500 for 90+% of the projects that are done at the space. Just my 2 cents
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Size and weight definitely feel like a factor for me. I don’t love big hand power tools. I can’t imagine I would ever need the 700 size. I’m thinking of using this for side and coffee tables.
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@Jon I’ve used them both for a whopping 90 minutes.
Reading the product descriptions would tell you more than I know.
That said, I know people who are very familiar with them both as we have them.
If you’d like to talk with a real pro with these Domino then let me know and I’ll introduce you.
I think we’re settled on the DF500 for this. I would propose we go ahead and move forward with the purchase this week. I’ll setup a fundraiser for it in Neon. Since we are going with the smaller one, we won’t necessarily need a ton of contributors – I know @gordoa40 @JennChilds and @jamesfreeman are ready to go in today for it. Just want to make sure others on this thread that had a strong interest get an opportunity if they want to be in on the early group. Reply here if you are still interested in contributing to the initial buy-in for this tool.
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In case any others are interested, here is the donation campaign for this tool - Asmbly Makerspace. Planning to go pick it up this week.
How does one make a donation towards the Festool 500?
Is there a link?
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Yes, it’s the link in Valerie’s message
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